Happiness Interview with Leo Babauta.

From time to time, I post short interviews with interesting people about their insights on happiness. During my study of happiness, I’ve noticed that I often learn more from one person’s highly idiosyncratic experiences than I do from sources that detail universal principles or cite up-to-date studies.

I’m a longtime fan of Leo Babauta’s wildly popular blog, Zen Habits. I always find a lot of thought-provoking material there about happiness and its related topics (exercise, creativity, relationships, productivity…) Leo also just came out with a terrific book, The Power of Less, about "the fine art of limiting yourself to the essential" -- it hit the Amazon bestseller list on the day of its release. His website, The Power of Less, has a lot of great material on the topic.

Leo lives on the island of Guam, has six children, runs marathons, and has done a lot of provocative thinking and writing about happiness.

Gretchen: What's a simple activity that consistently makes you happier?
Leo: Anything! I love reading, running, writing, spending time with my family, watching the ocean, taking a walk in nature, playing games and sports, drinking green tea, lounging around on a lazy Sunday afternoon, cuddling when it's rainy outside, talking with a good friend, wrestling with my toddlers. Any moment is an opportunity for happiness!

Gretchen: What's something you know now about happiness that you didn't know when you were 18 years old?
Leo: That happiness isn't something that will come at a later date in life -- it can be here and now. I was always waiting for something -- a better job, getting married, a nicer car, buying a house, traveling the world, retirement, wealth and fame. Trouble is, whenever you reach one of those things you're waiting for, you tend to start striving for the next thing, and you forget to be happy!

So I've learned, only recently, that I don't have to wait or strive for anything in order to be happy. I can be happy right now, and I am. Read my recent post on this.

Gretchen: Is there anything you find yourself doing repeatedly that gets in the way of your happiness?
Leo: Thinking about the future or the past -- worrying, replaying conversations in my head, stressing out about things that aren't happening right now. Lately I've learned to focus on the moment more and more -- to be present more than ever before. It's really a miracle cure for unhappiness, stress, worry, depression, and everything else.

Thinking about the past and future is the cause of all unhappiness.

Gretchen: Is there a happiness mantra or motto that you've find very helpful?
Leo: "Smile, breathe and go slowly." - Thich Nhat Hanh, Vietnamese Zen monk, author and peace activist. I absolutely adore that quote, as my readers know. It's applicable in any situation -- when you're stressed at the office, stuck in traffic, doing chores, or even running a marathon -- it was my mantra when I ran the Honolulu Marathon in December.

I just love that in just a few words, Thich Nhat Hanh teaches us how to be present and be happy, right here and now.

Gretchen: If you're feeling blue, how do you give yourself a happiness boost?
Leo: Going running always clears my head and helps me to feel better. I also try to focus myself back on the moment, through running and through breathing, because feeling blue is almost always caused by thinking about the past or future ... if you're in the moment the blueness goes away.

Also, I love cuddling with my children. Instant happiness.

Gretchen: Is there anything that you see people around you doing or saying that adds a lot to their happiness, or detracts a lot from their happiness?
Leo: The happiest people I know always focus on the positive things in their lives -- they always appreciate what they have, see the silver lining on everything, and find the good in everyone.

The people who aren't as happy focus on the negative things -- they complain, they pity themselves, they think they can't do something, and especially this: they criticize. They criticize others, and themselves. It always leads to unhappiness, for themselves and often those around them.

Gretchen: Have you always felt about the same level of happiness, or have you been through a period when you felt exceptionally happy or unhappy - if so, why? If you were unhappy, how did you become happier?
Leo: I wasn't always happy. It was only a few years ago that I was stressed and overworked, overweight, inactive, smoking, in debt, and so on. And I wasn't motivated to change anything.

I started making small, simple changes in my life, and these days I'm happier than ever. Small, baby steps did the trick.

Gretchen: Do you work on being happier? If so, how?
Leo: Sometimes, but these days it's not so much something I work on as a set of habits I have -- again, to remind myself to be present, to remind myself to be grateful and to appreciate life, to remind myself to cherish the small things. I am thankful for all that I have, and when I remember this, I'm instantly happy. It doesn't take much work. :)

Gretchen: Have you ever been surprised that something you expected would make you very happy, didn't - or vice versa?
Leo: Sure, lots of times! I thought getting a big promotion or raise would make me happy. Surprise! It only made me work harder and become more stressed, and the extra salary seemed to disappear right away. I thought a nicer vehicle would make me happier, but it just got me deeper into debt, cost more to maintain and fuel up, and was harder to drive because it was bigger than my old, small car.

I also thought being frugal and simplifying would be hard, and that the sacrifices would make me feel deprived and less happy. That was completely untrue -- I'm happier than ever now that I've simplified my life, and now that I'm able to focus on the essential things that I value most, that make me happy.

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Comments

[Liara Covert]

Happiness evokes different images, memories and ideas in different people. This interview reminds people that it is useful to step outside their conditioned ideas in order to expand on their feelings. Dictionaries offer definitions of joy and contentment, but it is another thing altogether to experience it. The truth is felt. Leo reminds us we can each build on what we think we already know. There is more to happiness than what many people assume. The physical world conditions people to believe joy is evoked by certain experiences. Yet, happiness is more than a physical representation of a dream. It is something that defies words. Every person has unlimited opportunities to explore it. We can make the most of our options.

[FupDuckTV]

I have not read Leo's works, but I will be adding him to my weekly reads.

[Carr Hagerman]

I've been reading Leo's book, and I'm struck by its common sense utility. But I am little weary about the idea that joy, or happiness, is always equated with having, owning, using less, cheaper, smaller, and so on. We hear the big car, the nice house, the shiny object won't bring us happiness. But what if they do? I think the big car has just as much potential to make us happy, as owning a bike, or walking. Happiness is such a subjective idea, isn't it?

Today, I have more resources, a nicer home, a nicer car than I did when I was 25. I can say I was happy then, I'm happy today AND I love the nicer things I have been able to purchase.

[Niels Bom]

@Carr

Nice and shiny things can make you happy, but as happiness is relative most people really can be just as happy with less.

Don't forget the economic motivations people and organisations have in convincing you in wanting all these expensive consumer goods, the more the better and the happier you'll be.

The thing is that you won't have to work as hard/long for the things that cost less. That means you'll have more time to enjoy them. Another good side effect is that it's probably better for the environment to enjoy simpler things than more complex and pricey stuff.

[Christopher]

What a dynamic duo of a post! Two of my favorite bloggers talking about happiness :)

[Carr Hagerman]

I'm not wise enough to really know what most people could, or would, be happy with less. I, for one, think the urge to buy nicer things is what elevates doomed countries and kills poverty, arguably greater threats to personal happiness.

I understand that one could get bogged down in debt, poor choices perhaps, or mindlessly using credit cards without paying attention to the future. I think happiness is possible, even in those times when we are overwhelmed, though certainly it requires more energy to sustain. But happiness is self-generating, we own our experience of it, true? I can't make happiness contingent on what I have or don't have, it's not a zero sum game. I am happy, or not, period.

I am skeptical of making happiness something that only is possible, or somehow more authentic and sustainable if we buy cheaper things, smaller cars, energy efficient homes, and a Timex. Those are all fine, and they can be a source of joy for those that seek to live in that manner, but they aren't better unless the person that has them believes them to be so.

I am not a victim of economic motivations. I WANT people to WANT to sell me things, it spurs the economy, it fuels innovation and creativity, and it creates a relationship of shared value. Agency is important. I believe freedom, including the freedom to buy nice things and have a nice car, are just as likely (and not) to provide a context for individual happiness.

If we draw a line that suggests happiness is sustainable only with less, small, cheap, where is that line drawn? Who draws the line?

Thanks for the debate, it is a very important debate these days..indeed.

Virginia Postrels "The Substance Of Style" is a worthy read to enlighten the debate further.

[Yes, But Still...]

This interview was a charm to read.

And Leo's last reply brought to mind what psychology researchers call "affective forecasting".

That is, people are surprisingly bad at predicting what will and will not make them happy. Does anyone care to share any personal experiences related to this?

[Brad Clark]

I have just recently discovered "The Happiness Project" and have sent a few comments to Ms. Rubin. I just figured out that there is this comments section (which is the appropriate place to share my comments), so I'm going to post a few general thoughts:

I am reasonably convinced that people cannot pursue happiness "head-on"; that is, I'm not sure it's especially fruitful to make "being happy" a primary goal. Instead, I think happiness is a by-product of pursuing (and achieving, I suppose!) other, more concrete goals. I have heard the phrase, "Happiness is a by-product of right living," and I put a lot of stock in it. In this I guess that I disagree with the Dalai Lama, who, if I understand it correctly, considers being happy the primary goal of life. Again, I think it's a much more indirect process (and anyway, ha, the Dalai Lama! What the hell does he know?!). I also think that having a great deal of humility and gratitude help.
Here's a very specific example. I have been a jogger/runner for about 12 years, but about five years ago I really started getting lazy and my exercise regimen really suffered. In part as a result of this, I gained a bunch of weight, my cholesterol shot up over 210, I turned 50, and I was feeling pretty unhappy that I had "let myself go." I made new year's resolutions a couple of times to "lose weight" but I didn't outline any specific steps, and so I never got anywhere.
Last year about this time I again thought about trying to lose weight but felt I needed help, so I joined Weight Watchers and recommitted myself to running - 5 mile runs 5 times a week. I feel that the tips from Weight Watchers (counting points, etc) were a great help - I didn't have to figure out WHAT to do; all I had to do was do what the program suggested. I feel that having the humility to seek and accept the help of that program was crucial. Plus the support at the meetings (and, quite frankly, the expense of joining - I didn't want to spend that money for nothing!!) - long story short, I lost 40 pounds in about 5 months and have kept at my goal weight of 170 since then, still of course running 5 times a week. And every time I complete a run I feel a great sense of gratitude for having the willingness to do this thing which I know is so good for me.

[Carr Hagerman]

Brad...I loved your summary. Thanks!

[LilSis]

Thanks for sharing that interview with Leo. I love Zen Habits. I'll be bookmarking this post to reread when I need a reminder about the pursuit of happiness. The most important thing that I've learned recently is to live in the moment, and don't dwell on the past or worry about the future.
Great interview!