Happiness Interview with Penelope Trunk: "Happiness is Sort of a Trick."

Penelope Trunk is one of the most interesting and provocative writers about career happiness – and happiness in general. (I think it’s almost impossible to untangle these two issues, but Penelope might disagree with me on that.) She wrote a terrific book, Brazen Careerist; she writes a very popular blog also called Brazen Careerist; and she’s the CEO of BrazenCareerist.com, an online community and consulting firm.

The thing about Penelope is that, yes, she is BRAZEN. She's unusually honest about her experiences and her views (for example, she wrote a lot about her experiences with marriage counseling), and unlike many highly opinionated people, she packs her writing with solid information and backs up her perspective. I always get a lot out of reading her material – I don’t always agree, but I’m always fascinated.

Gretchen: What's a simple activity that consistently makes you happier?
Penelope: There is nothing simple that I can rely on to make me happier. Yoga always makes me happy, but getting myself to do it is difficult even though I'm always happy I did it. Kissing someone I have a crush on always makes me happy, but finding the crush and orchestrating the kiss is tricky.

I want to tell you that expressing gratitude always makes me happier. I know that research says this is true. But I think we could debate forever how much increase in happiness is so small it's not even worth talking about. I'm not sure. But a kiss with a crush is always worth talking about.

What's something you know now about happiness that you didn't know when you were 18 years old?
My happiness levels in life don't particularly change depending on where I am in life. I have sort of a setpoint. I veer from it in the same way I veer from my regular weight the day after Thanksgiving -- I always go back to that setpoint.

Is there anything you find yourself doing repeatedly that gets in the way of your happiness?
Eating bread is what I’m working on right now. I've been off gluten enough to know that it makes a difference in my anxiety levels. I am calmer with no gluten. But bread is so yummy, and also it's the food I turn to if I want to do emotional eating. Over the course of a day I am happier if I don't eat bread, but over the course of a minute -- when the bread is in front of me -- it's hard to make the right decisions.

Is there a happiness mantra or motto that you've find very helpful?
I tell myself that happiness is not about making good choices or having success, it's about being resilient when we mess up.

If you're feeling blue, how do you give yourself a happiness boost?
I eat bread. And then I have the problem above. If I am really unhappy I go to bed. Severe unhappiness generally goes away with time.

Is there anything that you see people around you doing or saying that adds a lot to their happiness, or detracts a lot from their happiness?
I see a lot of bullshit around me. So I am sort of cynical about the discussion of happiness. I am not sure that I think the discussion of "Am I happy?" is productive. I think life is extremely difficult, for everyone, and that in order to get through life we have tricks for ourselves to continue the journey and happiness is sort of a trick. I don't think there is a lot of happiness in life, there is a lot of hopefulness and interest in how things unfold, and there are spurts of happiness. Sometimes I think that happiness is maybe not the most important part of a well-lived life. But I'm not sure.

Have you always felt about the same level of happiness, or have you been through a period when you felt exceptionally happy or unhappy - if so, why?
Always the same. I have earned $300,000/year in NYC and I have earned $45,000 a year. And there was no change. I have been married and divorced, and there was no change. I have had lots of friends and very few friends, and no change. I am generally upbeat and optimistic, and I am an optimizer. And nearly of those things ever change.

Do you work on being happier? If so, how?
Yes. By reading the research and watching how it applies to my life. Right now I am consumed with the idea that one of the biggest impacts you can have on happiness levels is going from no sex to having regular sex with a regular partner. Working on that one. Forget daily gratitudes. Those don't impact happiness nearly as much.

Have you ever been surprised that something you expected would make you very happy, didn't - or vice versa?
I thought money would make me happy. It didn't. I still think money would make me happy. There is cognitive dissonance and I think it might be part of our DNA. Here's an irony: That in order to spend days implementing the happiness research, you'd do best to have someone else supporting you financially, so you can focus on happiness. I get stuck on thinking like this. I'm not sure how right it is, I just know that people -- most people -- are stuck on the money issue, even if they won't admit it.

*
Interested in starting your own happiness project? If you’d like to take a look at my personal Resolutions Chart, for inspiration, just email me at grubin, then the “at” sign, then gretchenrubin dot com. (Sorry about writing it in that roundabout way; I’m trying to thwart spammers.) Just write “Resolutions Chart” in the subject line.

Comments

[Suzanne Shaffer]

I tend to agree with Penelope. The money issue greatly affects my happiness. Although my mother often told me that happiness can't be achieved by any other means other than being at peace with God. As I get older, I'm beginning to believe she was right. (Aren't our mothers always right?)

Great interview Gretchen. I love reading Penelope's blog.

[Ella]

I am amazed that the same person who says this:

I think life is extremely difficult, for everyone, and that in order to get through life we have tricks for ourselves to continue the journey and happiness is sort of a trick. I don't think there is a lot of happiness in life, there is a lot of hopefulness and interest in how things unfold, and there are spurts of happiness.

Also says this:

I am generally upbeat and optimistic, and I am an optimizer.

I can't reconcile those two things in my head. I was reading along, thinking "Wow, this woman is such a pessimist!" and then I got to the part about being an optimist.

[MJ]

"Here's an irony: That in order to spend days implementing the happiness research, you'd do best to have someone else supporting you financially, so you can focus on happiness. I get stuck on thinking like this. I'm not sure how right it is, I just know that people -- most people -- are stuck on the money issue, even if they won't admit it."

Bingo.

[Kristin]

I'm laughing at myself a little right now, because I nearly cried at her comment about bread. I'm wheat-allergic and I know EXACTLY what she means. It's not even just a psychological thing like eating candy when you're dieting; for some people gluten actually causes an increase in anxiety. But it's so good... It's just nice to see someone express the same exact problem I have. Makes me feel less alone in it, and that's a definite happiness boost. :)

Ella, I have to agree with you -- I was surprised by the optimist comment! Her saying that "happiness is a trick" is so cynical. It made me sad -- not because I think she's shed light on some truth of the world, but because if that's how she truly sees the world, it must be a dark place for her. It's hard to reconcile that with the optimist comment.

[pve@pvedesign.com]

bread makes me totally happy - that and cheese!
first happy comment here!
pve

[Alex Lickerman, MD @ Happiness in this World]

I frankly don't agree happiness is a trick. Happiness is a whole lot more complex than most (and most blogs about happiness) make it out to be. I think many if not most people are unhappy because their beliefs about happiness are incorrect. Happiness isn't achieved by accident. Happiness takes work. It's a skill to be honed. Even people who seem to have been born predisposed to being happy have to work at it. But if you work at it in the wrong way, no matter how well intentioned you might be, you won't end up happy. Trying to become happy by acquiring things like money or the right job or the right spouse, for example, is a bit like showing up to a soccer game with a baseball bat and thinking you have actually have a chance to win if you can only hit a home run.

[Jackie Danicki]

I don't think most human beings can be happy signing over responsibility for their life to someone else. That is to say, I don't think expecting someone else to pay your way while you try to figure out how to be happy is a very clever approach to getting there.

[valerie]

A breath of fresh air! Love her! Will start reading her blog.

[Scott]

Happiness is relative to each person the same way as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's interesting that through everything she struggles with it. It's so very normal.

[Jessica]

Thinking happiness is a kind of trick doesn't invalidate it for me. I liked reading her responses to your questions, Gretchen.

[kathy]

Happiness seems to be elusive for so many of us. Why is that? Is it what we believe happiness is or how we believe we should feel when we're happy? Happy is a light and airy emotion - does it come and go with life events that bring us pleasure - is it even an emotion intended for the long run? Or is happiness an outer layer of the deeper emotions of joy and contentment? Personally, I would rather feel joy and contentment every day even through rough times than be happy every day.

[Kristin]

Kathy, I think people have different definitions of all of those terms. I think of joy as something far more fleeting than happiness. During the rough times I wouldn't say I'm content, because... well, by definition during rough times I'm not content with the way things are. I can be happy despite those things, though. It's interesting to me how much discussions of happiness are matters of semantics and personal definitions.

[Julia]

Ella, I think what Penelope MEANT to say (but didn't really say) is that life according to the model of nature is very difficult and is meant to be difficult. If things weren't hard, we wouldn't feel so satisfied when we finished something, would be? That interaction of challenge and reward is what motivates us and is what makes us . . . get a job, or anything else involving work. So we create a structure for ourselves with this job, we do tasks we'd rather not because of what the job affords us (money) and we get through the work day (we trick ourselves into doing unliked tasks). Granted Penelope does sound *awfully* dark when she talks about happiness in this way!

[Jessica]

I'm really glad I found this post. I purchased Penelope's book about 18 months ago but I didn't know she had a blog. I just picked up the book and had a flick through again, such a good book. I love how she is so straight forward with her views and actions.

[Suddenly Susan]

Hmmmm .....

[Anne]

A must-read for getting your head on straight about money: "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin, Joe Dominguez, and Monique Tilford. The book proposes a strategy for achieving financial independence, but its most useful content has to do with helping the reader figure out what money represents to him/her on a mostly unconscious level -- things like security, power, or freedom, or some combination. Once you understand this (and, as the book demonstrates, it is the very rare person for whom money does not "mean" something), you can better understand why you believe and feel the way you do about money, how those feelings and beliefs, rational or not, drive so many of your decisions about saving, spending, and everything else you do with money, and how to let go of those beliefs. The book points the way to a new, healthier and more rational relationship with money that leaves room for your unique take on the world, your experiences and values, whatever they might be. Check it out!

[Tomac]

For me, Happiness has come down to three things:

Something to Do
Someone to Love
Something to Look Forward to

I don't know if this works for everyone, but it sure works for me.

Comments????

Thanks

[Christopher]

I met Penelope when she gave a keynote speech at a conference we put on last year. She was funny, insightful...and brazen, but made people think the next few days of sessions.

Enjoy her blog and her comments here - especially in regards to her thoughts on money. Thanks Gretchen and Penelope!

[Daphne]

Gretchen and Penelope, I enjoyed this interview with ths spunky, honest answers!

[Fred Bloggs]

Sometimes I think people confuse optimism with denying the dark side of things. A lot of times I've been told, when I've said something I find beautiful and full of joy, "you're so negative", and I think it's because I've come at my joy from a knowledge of sorrow. The source of the joy is sometimes even in the sorrow.

I think optimism is an orientation, and you can have that orientation whether you're standing knee deep in stinking sludge, or on top of a snowy hilltop overlooking the world. But it has to be honest.

Regarding money, it doesn't buy happiness, but the lack of it buys a lot of sorrow.

[Zarya]

Two things struck me about this interview:

1) The statement that happiness is a trick; in a sense, it is. If you don't have any religious beliefs to bolster you, then you are constantly being faced with your own mortality and the "meaning of it all." Thus, even in brief, fleeting, ecstatic moments, one can't help but wonder "OK, what next? What does this all mean?"
So, in order to be completely happy, one has to be completely in the moment and willingly suspend disbelief about all the things that could possibly go wrong...(I'm a jewish atheist; this happens to me a lot).

2. Her statement about having regular sex with a regular partner. Although a far cry from coming out and stating that one needs a romantic relationship to be happy, this was pretty darn close. And I applaud that. As 21st C. women we are taught to have it all, or almost all, and to be content on our own, without having anyone there to complete us. And that we should be darn happy about it, too. So, when we're not, we think there is something wrong with us for wanting more, for wanting a relationship and not being happy without one. I know that I am infinitely happier now that I am in a fulfilling relationship and it would be dishonest to suggest I was perfectly happy when I was single and sans sex. I wasn't. I was utterly miserable.

3. OK, there is a third thing that came from the comments. Being understood. I find that that is one of the keys to happiness; having people listen to you, hear you, and say "I know exactly what you mean, I've been there, too." Somehow this empathy reassures us that we are not alone in this big, bad world, but have allies; that our own thoughts are not too dark and twisty, but normal and real and utterly human.

[Noumenon]

Right now I am consumed with the idea that one of the biggest impacts you can have on happiness levels is going from no sex to having regular sex with a regular partner.

I don't recall you ever mentioning this one, Gretchen.

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